On 10/7/2017 at 10:20 PM, remoandiris said:

Today too few people today believe in frugal living, IMO.  They want the instant gratification and the newest/latest/bestest contraption out there

This is changing. Millennials are a huge part of the minimalism movement. Instead of buying stuff they are buying experiences that improve their lives and the lives of others. I am starting to have hope again.

Linda Sand

  On 10/7/2017 at 10:20 PM, remoandiris said:

Today too few people today believe in frugal living . . .

Your argument is a variation of the "welfare queen" story -- that is, some of them poor folks are sure living high off the hog. (I'm sure some of them are, but as a rule? I think not.)

Sure, people could better plan their retirements, but I'm remiss to put it all on bad planning or to ascribe some sort character flaw to those with little retirement savings.

  On 10/7/2017 at 10:20 PM, remoandiris said:

Sure, it is easy to blame the economy or politicians, or whatever.  Reality is personal responsibility has waned and now someone else is always to blame.

If you're going to lay blame (as you do), then at least be even handed.

Besides individual planning, the WP article also mentions several factors that have significantly affected retirement savings:

• The relatively recent shift in retirement savings plans from employer (e.g., pensions) to individual (401ks). If financial planning were that easy or self evident, shouldn't we all be millionaires?
• People are living longer
• Two recent recessions which gutted many retirement plans.
• Decrease in social security purchasing power

Good planning and/or living frugally can't always maneuver someone around all of the above. 

  On 10/8/2017 at 3:39 AM, sandsys said:

Millennials are a huge part of the minimalism movement. Instead of buying stuff they are buying experiences that improve their lives and the lives of others. I am starting to have hope again.

Don't hold your breath.

  On 10/7/2017 at 11:56 PM, eddie1261 said:

Frugal living is great! I keep making changes. Little, minor things. I buy dry foods when I can. The can of black beans that is $1.29 for a 15 ounce can you can make yourself by buying a 16 ounce bag of dry beans that when hydrated makes about 20 cans worth. AND you get to control the sodium. Also peas, lentils.... Be aware of turning off lights you aren't using. Turn the thermostat up 3 degrees so the AC doesn't run as much. Little tweaks like that help a lot

The secret to good financial management is not in having enough money to live well but in learning how to live well on the money that you have. 

  On 10/8/2017 at 7:40 AM, Zulu said:

Your argument is a variation of the "welfare queen" story -- that is, some of them poor folks are sure living high off the hog. (I'm sure some of them are, but as a rule? I think not.)

Sure, people could better plan their retirements, but I'm remiss to put it all on bad planning or to ascribe some sort character flaw to those with little retirement savings.

 

If you're going to lay blame (as you do), then at least be even handed.

Besides individual planning, the WP article also mentions several factors that have significantly affected retirement savings:

• The relatively recent shift in retirement savings plans from employer (e.g., pensions) to individual (401ks). If financial planning were that easy or self evident, shouldn't we all be millionaires?
• People are living longer
• Two recent recessions which gutted many retirement plans.
• Decrease in social security purchasing power

Good planning and/or living frugally can't always maneuver someone around all of the above. 

You can "think not" all you want.  We will simply agree to disagree.  If people have "little retirement savings", who is at fault?  The company they work for?  The state?  The bank? Society as a whole?  Or the individual who decides to sped their money?

Recent shift in retirement savings plans???  Let's see...30 yrs ago I was smart enough to start saving/investing for retirement, and I was just a dopey 20-something who had been working for 10 yrs already, beginning with delivering morning newspapers in 5th grade.  Why?  Because my parents didn't have enough money at the end of the week to give me and my siblings an allowance, so if I wanted to buy something, I had to work for it.  It wasn't rocket science then and it isn't now.  

Life spans are not a new invention, either.

Recessions may have had a major impact on SOME retirement plans, but that is the point of diversification.  

As for social security, I go back 30 yrs again...I never expected to have it back then and I am surprised it is still here today.  Especially since it seems easier to scam the system.  And the "decrease in social security purchasing power" is not a new phenomenon.  The buying power of a dollar in 1900 is not the same as the buying power of a dollar in 1950 is not the same as the buying power of a dollar in 2000 is not the same as the buying power of a dollar in 2017.

Good planning and frugal living may not maneuver everyone around those problems, but that does not mean they are faulty beliefs/actions that can protect many from financial problems. 

  On 10/8/2017 at 7:50 PM, remoandiris said:

Good planning and frugal living may not maneuver everyone around those problems, but that does not mean they are faulty beliefs/actions that can protect many from financial problems. 

I come from a similar background to yours, but quite a few years older. I grew up in the 50's and my parents struggled to buy clothes for us kids and only kept us well fed because of the garden and farm produce. But they encouraged us to find jobs and the money we earned bought us our extras or luxuries. Yet they still managed to live what for them was a comfortable life once dad retired at the age of 72. 

Much later in life, I became the Scoutmaster for a troop of boys from low-income families that was sponsored and mostly funded by a local VFW post. That was in the early 80's and to my surprise, I discovered that several of those boys had parents who were in jobs that paid significantly more than what Pam & I took in!  Between the two experiences, I came to understand that financial health is more a matter of managing what you have than it is of how much your income is. While it is true that money management will never totally eliminate poverty, it is also true that much poverty exists because of poor money management. 

While I agree there are some people, and I believe a minority of people, who just don't earn enough money to fund savings for retirement, the majority of people who just don't have any, or very little retirement savings didn't plan ahead. 

I also think a lot of people don't "read", or pay attention to various news sources.  They tend to listen to the latest big news item. 

Just like RV'ing knowledge doesn't just pop into our brains.  We need to pay ATTENTION to financial matters and use come common sense.  Read the newspaper every day.  Or almost daily go to a website like Google News, Yahoo News, AP news online, or go to USA Today online, or NY Times, Washington Post websites. 

Also when we do read about financial matters we also need to use some common sense and read differing sides of financial advice.

Two sources of what I consider excellent sources of advice:

The first is an strong advocate for frugal living and getting out of debt.  Dave Ramsey.  His basic message is get out of debt, stay out of debt, don't buy stuff unless you can pay for in up front.  I do have a big problem with him though.  I think he took his basic message and managed to parlay it into a huge lucrative business benefiting him. He gives to much hype and "my way is the only way" to suit me.   We have lived our almost 50 years of married life with the basic principals fostered by Dave Ramsey.  We Just started doing this while he was still in elementary school. 

The second is the investment advice from Scott Burns, given in his twice weekly newspaper column over some 20-30 years.  While Scott Burns is retired now, all his columns are available here.  His columns make excellent reading.  He even has written a number of articles advocating the fairly economical benefit of the RV'ing life style and/or living in the retirement communities where the retirees live in their RV's or Park Models. 

No one should take the advice given by the above two sources as "the truth".  Read the advice and see just how you can apply the information to your situation. 

The topic of "recessions" has come up in this topic a time or two.  While the recessions are devastating to retirement investments there is something that some people did which was even more devastation to their investments. 

When the stock market tanked in the 2007-2009 time frame, they moved what was left of their investments out of the stock market into fixed return funds, like bonds, etc.  Then over the next 10 years when the stock market tripled or almost tripled their investments either didn't keep up with inflation or barely kept up with inflation. 

Additionally there were some number of people in the years prior to 2008, bought houses with the expectation they could sell them in 2-3 years for a lot more than they paid for them.  OOPS, the value of many of those houses dropped way, way down.  Now with the recession they may have lost their jobs, or had to take a pay cut so they can't make the payments, taxes and upkeep on those expensive houses. 

Also some or many people respond to the latest hot item.  In this forum, there are strong advocates for just how great the Tesla stock is.  Yeah, it is, or better yet "was".  For every Tesla, we could invest in when it is a startup, there are 5 or 50 which tank. 

I read this morning that Tesla is up 1200% from its IPO.  That is wonderful.  However if you buy Tesla now thinking it will triple or increase by 5 or 10 times in the next number of years, you are taking a huge risk.  Investing 1% or 4% of your investment funds in Tesla might be OK, but just keep in mind the risks. 

A better way to go is: When everyone is saying how great this investment is, that is the time to sell, not buy.  By the time everyone is on the band wagon the money has already been made. 

AND there is NO replacement for frugal living.  Although frugal living with a $100K income is different from frugal living on a $25K income.  But both can be a satisfying life. 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Al F

  On 10/8/2017 at 9:12 PM, Al F said:

But both can be a satisfying life. 

Just that one can be 4 times as satisfying .

  On 10/8/2017 at 9:52 PM, Pat & Pete said:

Just that one can be 4 times as satisfying .

NOPE!  It what you do with what you have, is what makes you happy.  Not that you will be happier with 4 times as much money.

  On 10/8/2017 at 10:15 PM, Al F said:

NOPE!  It what you do with what you have, is what makes you happy.  Not that you will be happier with 4 times as much money.

True that^ . BUT , if you have nothing , then you can do nothing . Not that that's all that bad , but ...